We chat with the duo about their plunge into Jack Kirby's Fourth World and where they swim from there.
Welcome to Creator Corner, our recurring interview series in which we chat with the industry's coolest and most thought-provoking creators. In this entry, we're conversing with Ram V and Evan Cagle about The New Gods. Listen to the unedited audio HERE.
After months of anticipation, we're already two issues into The New Gods by Ram V and Evan Cagle. It's clearly reverent toward Jack Kirby's Fourth World but striving into realms only these two creators would venture. They built a unique collaboration on Dawnrunner, the science fiction Kaiju-smasher from Dark Horse Comics, and our now blazing through grand cosmic mythology rooted in ancient earth mythology. Again, Jack Kirby would want nothing less.
It's always a treat to chat with Ram V, and it was even more delightful this time as he brought Evan Cagle with him. We discuss their different histories with Jack Kirby's work, how they connected to The New Gods on a personal level, and what trouble we can expect for our heroes (and villains) shortly. Baby's Day Out, DC-style.
The New Gods #3 will hit comic book shops on February 19th.
This conversation was edited for clarity and length.
Ram V and Evan Cagle Go to the Source with The New Gods
Brad: So, the last time we talked with Ram, we discussed his relationship with the New Gods and Jack Kirby. Evan, I would love to talk about your experience with these characters. I know it differs a little bit from Ram's.
Evan Cagle: It's true. I think I've told this story in another interview, but I will try to make it spontaneous.
Lisa: No presh, we get it.
Evan Cagle: No, when I was growing up, I got a couple of long boxes from a neighbor who was probably in his 40s or so, and I don't know if he was getting married or moving or what the deal was, but essentially had to get rid of his long boxes. So, for some absolute pittance, I got 20 years' worth of his comic collecting just sort of thrown in my lap. I didn't have an older brother or dad or somebody who brought their taste to bear on my own, as I think many comics readers as kids do. Instead, I just had this rando neighbor who had fortunately really good taste in weird comics, and among those were - sort of, I guess, the post-greatness Kirby. It was a bunch of stuff that he was doing for I think it was Pacific -
Brad: Yeah.
Evan Cagle: Just really small houses, nothing like what he had done for the big two. But they were great stories, usually sci-fi, and always strange. He just had such a strange imagination that was compelling. Anyway, so that was my introduction to Kirby. I didn't really have a firsthand experience with any of his big established characters until much, much later.
Brad: And here you two are, coming off of Dawnrunner, tackling the New Gods, making the New Gods very much your own. What is then involved in that process from your point of view, Evan?
Evan Cagle: What is involved in making it our own? I think it's finding the points of interest for us within the framework that Kirby set up. You're looking for your way in, your hooks, the things that speak to you.
Ram V, Evan Cagle, The New Gods, and Punchy-Plotty
Lisa: This child, the new New God at the center of this story, will be passed from one immortal DC Hero to another immortal DC Hero. Ram, you love to make character your priority, but you're still a story-first kind of writer. How does that work, and how does that work specifically for The New Gods?
Ram V: Yeah, structurally, you're right. It really follows Hindu mythology, the idea that the last avatar of God is yet to be born, and he will come onto the earth at some point in time. And then the immortals are lying in wait for the arrival of this last avatar so they may pass on to him the knowledge, skills, and powers that he needs to fight the great darkness, if you will.
I'm taking that as a plot structure from Hindu mythology, not necessarily putting it first. But I find it interesting to take elements like that rather than pick characters straight out of mythology or something like that. Within that structure, of course, the focus has to always be on character. I mean, yes, you want the big moments, the big plotty reveals, and the unexpected character turns and all of that to be great. Still, those things only resonate emotionally if you invest in the character.
And I think Kirby's Fourth World has a huge cast, so anywhere between a dozen to 30 characters, if you count all the random obscure appearances in one issue or some even just appearing for a few panels. And I kind of want to use all of them. That's the challenge I set for myself in this run. But what that means is some of these characters - I have very little real estate to get you to invest, and so you might invest in them for punchy-plotty reasons, but you still will. And then some characters, Highfather, Scott Free, Orion, Big Barda, and our new New God, if you will, you'll have more time to invest in over the run, and so you will see more appearances and be given more reasons to empathize and understand and sympathize. Does that answer your question at all?
Lisa: Yeah. Yeah.
Ram V: I know I went super broad, but yeah.
Ram V, Evan Cagle, The New Gods, and The New, New God
Lisa: Well, I'm thinking about where you have a situation where every hero is like, "Okay, I have this small window to nurture this child. I'm going to make a small impact". What is the impact that immortal is going to choose to make? The idea of nature versus nurture is inherent to New Gods, and this idea of overcoming either your genetic makeup, a prophecy, or your nurturing or whatever. And I know a lot of that focus is going to be on this child, but in this first issue, I find myself sucked into Orion's story.
I relate to it a lot when Highfather, his dad, asks him to do something he does not believe in. He has his own personal principle of, "I don't kill kids. That's not my favorite thing to do". But also doesn't have a precedent for disobeying his father, so he's trying to keep those two parts of himself in one piece. "Is there a way that I can uphold my personal principle but also still not change in the eyes of my dad?" To me, as a person... I'm now middle-aged, I'm turning 41 this month, and I still keep secrets about myself from my parents. You know what I mean?
Ram V: Kind of just jumping on there, and to add further complicating layers to your reading of it. First, on the subject of the child, it's not necessary that the immortals are all heroes.
Lisa: Yeah. Oh yeah, of course. Of course!
Ram V: So there's also stuff that he has to learn from characters that are not necessarily positive influences, yet he must take his gifts from them. I think that is reflective of a complex character. We meet people and are undoubtedly influenced by people we later recognize as not so nice. Maybe we don't have the same beliefs as them, but we were raised by them, or we were influenced by them in some ways. And yet we must take what cards we were dealt, and you can only hope to improve yourself despite your influences. And I think that reflects really well on the point you made where, yeah, it is by design that you invest in Orion and Scott Free in this first issue because, as I said, the child must be given more time to develop as a character.
I think Orion's struggle - absolutely the two layers that you mentioned. The, "I have never disobeyed Highfather, and yet I feel bad about having to take on this mission. And so I must subvert it in some way while not breaking any rules". And the only reason he has this conundrum in the first place is because actually he is Darkseid's son.
Lisa: Right, right.
Ram V: And Highfather's command has been his replacement for a moral compass forever, because his great fear is if he were to disobey Highfather what if he became Darkseid in the process? And I think that adds another layer of complication. Now then beyond that, the part that I really love about the character, is that what if his greatest desire is to be a good guy? That's why he follows everything Highfather says, and yet now imagine his heartbreak when he perhaps thinks to himself, "The only reason hi father would give this task to me is because Highfather knows I am Darkseid's son".
Ram V, Evan Cagle, The New Gods, and Orion's Outer Self
Brad: Evan, you got to talk about that moment in the first issue where Orion reveals his inner Darkseid.
Evan Cagle: What do you want to know?
Brad: Well, give us some insight into your thoughts when crafting the panel. What are you pulling out of the script at that moment? How are you relating to it?
Evan Cagle: It's such a weird moment, right? It's like - going biblical for a second, during the binding of Isaac. If Abraham had said, "I feel like God is maybe crazy right now. I don't know if I should do this". Which is essentially what Orion says to Scott. "I feel like something's wrong. It seems like something's not okay with Highfather, and still, I'm going to do this". It's such a wild path to take. But yeah, I guess I'm just trying to find something in his appearance to latch onto. Some look in the eye, something we can recognize as human, even though plainly he's monstrous in his true form. But finding something sympathetic in there, I guess without... I don't know to put it exactly.
Brad: Yeah. I mean sorrowful, right?
Evan Cagle: Maybe it's a picture worth a thousand words kind of thing. But yeah, I mean some shred of, I don't know, tenderness to him.
Lisa: Mm-hmm.
Evan Cagle: It's got to feel like there's some deeper level, right? Like there's the mask that he wears in front of everyone. He takes the mask off, and there's this horrible thing underneath. And yet, I want there to be even a third layer beneath that - something true and real.
Ram V: Yeah, yeah.
Lisa: Yeah.
Ram V: Even the panel that comes before, which is Orion's good-looking face, I love that Evan made it so pristine that I could see little sparkles gleaming off of it as if it was animated or something.
Evan Cagle: Right, right.
Ram V: Yeah, I just love that contrast. It is such a handsome face that you go, "There's no way this could be real." And I think that is subliminally speaking to perhaps people's impression of Orion himself.
The New Gods #2 is out now from DC Entertainment. And don't forget, you can listen to this unedited conversation on the CBCC Patreon.